Sub Amps...?

[Bing]

I know a fellow member here (Ben) has this amp driving their sub. What do you think of it Ben, is it working well? Should I get it to upgrade from my old Bryston 3B (~500W bridged @ 4ohms), now single channel from one of my Rotels (400w @ 4ohms)?

I'm not sure if I want to go internal like this one


http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=HPSA1000

Or external like this one, however my inability to decide cost me the lower price of the standalone unit that was at $350 a week ago.....



http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SA1000


I'm currently using a Feedback Destroyer for sub EQ duties... Using the external would allow me to keep using it, however I don't really have room in my rack for another amplifier. I was liking the integrated design and simplicity of the plate amp....

Thoughts?

[taz13]

I just put my built in sub amps in a hardwood box and put it where I can plug in and run a speaker wire from the amp to the sub.

[Bent]

Bing, I actually use the Adire Audio ADA 1200, it makes that little Dayton want to stay home and hide in bed... LOL. Mine has two built in parammetric EQ's, which can be used, or bypassed - as well as a selectable 12dB/octave or 24dB/octave defeatable/cascadeble crossover (if you wish, you can implement a 12db/octave curve at 80 hz (frequency selectable), and switch to 24db/octave at 25 hz (also frequency selectable).
I've owned my '1200 for about 6 years now, it suffered catastrophic internal failure a year ago November (easilly 2 - 3 years after the closing of Adire Audio, so I thought I was screwded), I contacted Dan Wigginis and he sent me a factory schematic so I could try to repair it myself.
After looking on the schematic as to where the known failed components were, I noticed a lot of "component topography" in-between the "known" failed components, and I could only guess that the damage was more severe than what I could see. After speaking with Dan again, he called on one of his old staff members to quote a price for implementing a full repair and update. It coxst me approx 140 bucks for shipping both ways (through Bob Reimer at CSS) and 100 dollars for the repair and updates. It was sent out as a gen 1 prototype and was returned to me as a gen 4 model (much quieter, and a lot more stable).

There is nothing to stop you from using the BFD in addition to the plate amp, or with an outboard amp. I have a BFD-1124p in line with mine, but I still have not bothered to set it up....
My ADA 1200 is mounted in a 12" square outboard cube, so if it cacks on me again, I just need to find another rack-mount or another plate amp and replace it.

[Andrew Pratt]

I'm using a BASH plate amp to drive my Tumult. Its been rock solid for years so I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a BASH plate amp. For me having the plate amp built in makes the install that much easier and cleaner. It also makes resale easier if I ever need to go that route.

Bing which sub driver will this be connected to?

[Andrew Pratt]

This is the amp I'm using. Its only 500 watts but that's been enough for me and means that my driver should be safe from being over driven.

http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=BASH500

SVS uses the same amps (750 & 1000 watt versions) in their products.

[Bent]

IIRC, Bing has a Blueprint 1203 in his ported box.

if his box size is correct, the 1203 motor assy is good for 1000 watts.

[Bing]

Hey Guys, thanks for your help Taz, that's a pretty good idea to mount it in it's own enclosure. What are you using for amp and driving?


Ben, that's right, I remember now... I thought they were somewhat the same amp, however I had forgotten. That's excellent that CSS and Adaire would look after you and you got it back up and running. What is the amp driving? I think I would just pass on the BFD and go with the adjustments on the plate amp... Unless it was really peak and valley-ville (outside of allowable adjustment)


Andrew I'm using the Blueprint 1203. Using one channel of the 1095, however I thought maybe I would mount a plate amp into the sub just so it has it's own power. I was thinking the 1000W would allow me to drive the sub harder than the Rotel. I would not think the Tumault could be over driven with 500W.... I like the price of the Bash, however it's in the power range I'm currently at so wonder if would notice much improvement over say going to the 1000W

[Bing]

Originally Posted by Bent

IIRC, Bing has a Blueprint 1203 in his ported box.

if his box size is correct, the 1203 motor assy is good for 1000 watts.

Good memory Ben! That's correct... My box size is about a .5 to 1 cubic foot too big if I remember correctly. You may all remember I punched the voice coil into the aluminum driver of the original Infinity driver. So I grafted the 1203 into the box I made for the Infinity Kappa. I thought the plate amp would make up for some of that with i volume reduction.

[Bent]

Bing, I originally used the ADA 1200 with my 4 ohm BP-1503 in a ported AS-15 Klone box, but it had a mechanical failure, so I replaced the driver with a dual 4 ohm 15" Soundsplinter RL-p in the AS-15, wired for 8 ohms... (so the '1200 delivered 600 watts into an 8 ohm load).
I then built a new (prettier) sub with 2 dual 4 ohm 15" RL-p's in a 8 cubic ft sealed box wired in series/parallel for 4 ohms total load. (back to 1200 watts!!!

I used the ADA 1200 to apply some deep boost and force the drivers to run a little harder from 22 hz and down, so I still have really good extension - and 1200 watts ensures really good dydnamics.

[Bing]

Oh, yeah, I remeber seeing that picture now... Thats Awesome Ben!! It looks like it could do some damage!

[Andrew Pratt]

The tumult will take 1000 watts if I wanted to push that much to it but I find 500 is plenty. Remember that doubling the power gets you a 3dB increase in volume. Plate amps are all about convenience and in some cases the on board EQ is useful but an external amp is typically cheaper per watt...esp something like a QSC power amp...lots of cheap power but loud fan noise.

[Bing]

Originally Posted by Andrew Pratt

The tumult will take 1000 watts if I wanted to push that much to it but I find 500 is plenty. Remember that doubling the power gets you a 3dB increase in volume. Plate amps are all about convenience and in some cases the on board EQ is useful but an external amp is typically cheaper per watt...esp something like a QSC power amp...lots of cheap power but loud fan noise.

Yeah I would have thought the Tumult could take a lot more than 500W and would be more at risk of being under driven than over driven, as most speakers are (depending on the material and levels of course). Thats good to hear it works well with the 500w amp.



I'm not really looking for more loudness, more I'm hoping for more control and tighter response... The BP1203 goes lower than the Kappa it replaced, however at times I get the feel it is under powered, and could be a bit tighter and more solid over all with more power. I was hoping the internal amp would bring the require enclosure volume more to spec by taking up some space, and clean up my rack and wiring....

[Andrew Pratt]

You'll likely get more out of the driver by changing the box or location then upgrading the amp. Is your box ported or sealed?

[Bing]

Originally Posted by Andrew Pratt

You'll likely get more out of the driver by changing the box or location then upgrading the amp. Is your box ported or sealed?

Ported...

I was driving it with my Bryston in Bridged 500W operation... One of the channels on the amp died, so I used an open Rotel Channel (400W). Although it did the job, that's when I noticed it sort of felt under powered... I suppose I could just replace the capacitors in the Bryston to get it working again, but then that still leaves a lot of clutter...

So even if I build a new box, I'm still going to need a proper amplifier (unless I fix the Bryston), so I was thinking I should start there and see how it goes.

Here is the last sweep of the 1203 in the box. The Blue line is the un-EQ'ed driver. The Pink line is with a few parametric filters applied from the BFD.

[Andrew Pratt]

That's a pretty respectable curve actually...boost that dip at 36 and it'd be pretty solid meaning that the minimal EQ on the plate amps would likely do the trick. Have you tried plugging the port?

[taz13]

I just use any plate amp from CSS or Solen. Right now I think all my plate amps are Bash Plate amps and one from Solen that is no longer advertised. Subs at home are SDX7's built into my entertainment center. They are driven by a Bash 300. Two sonotube subs in Kelsey driven by a Solen bought plate amp. And my end table sub with a tempest 15" driven by a Bash 500. The amps are mounted in hardwood boxes the back is 1/2 screen and 1/2 wood to hold the speaker binding posts and provide ventalation.

[taz13]

My BFD's are doing what they were designed to do. Stop feedback when playing in the band!!!!!!!!!!

[Bent]

judging by the before and after lines on the graph, he's applying heavy boost at 36 hz already.
moving/relocating the subwoofer might be an easier solution than possibly running out of headroom on the amplifier.

thoughts?

(this being true if there truly are issues with the graph... Like you said, it looks pretty respecxtable asit tis

[Andrew Pratt]

Oh for sure..it takes huge amounts of power to fill in holes (if it even works) so moving the sub to get a flatter response would mean using a lot less power and give you more headroom...esp if you ended up locating the sub where it gets a bump from 30 to 50 hz as you'll really notice it there.

[Bing]

Correct Ben, if I remember correctly I have about 3 or 4 filters stacked around 36Hz, to fix that dip....

OK, you guys sort of have me leaning towards fixing the Bryston, if You don't think I'm going to get much more performance for the 1000W amp....

[Andrew Pratt]

Is it possible to move the sub?....or your seats

[Bent]

IIRC, it's negligible gain for doubling the power.

if maintaining the same present power is cost effective regarding a repair, and you don't have a hankering to go out and buy something new - then it's an easy decision.

[Bing]

I can move the sub, but only to one other location.


It will be cost effective to fix the Bryston as the caps are about $45 for the 3 I need... And it does work well.... I sort of have a hankering for something new, but could be talked off the cliff, as it seems you guys have done.

[Andrew Pratt]

That's not like us. Ok plan B....fix the Bryston....then sell it and use those funds to buy a new plate amp. Sound better?

[Bing]

Sure, that works for the time being..